Digital Paint Discussion Board

Paintball 2: The Game => Paintball 2 Discussion => Topic started by: Bix on January 16, 2009, 11:26:54 PM

Title: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 16, 2009, 11:26:54 PM
First off this thread is not meant to be offensive or flaming, instead constructive to the wellbeing of the DigitalPaintball 2 forums. First off I would like to ask simply what Knack does for the community. Next I would like to know why he is a Global Moderator. I realize that he is an 'authority figure', but why? Knack doesn't pub. He is on IRC but it is essentially pointless since I have tried to contact him multiple times with no replies. He appears to just read the forums and discuss without fulling knowing the context of the discussion.

Looking through some of the threads in this section I have came to realize that 50% roughly of the threads are locked (idea originally found by Mewa). I made a thread about navyseal hacking, the thread was constructive and there was no flaming. Within about 2 hours it was locked and moved to where the committee can deal with it.

It just seems that Knack is patrolling the forums in a way that is not needed. He contributes very little, if at all, to the community other than the fact that he locks nearly every thread...constructive or not.

Once again, this thread is not meant to be offensive or flaming. Simply to discuss why Knack is a Global Moderator, and what he is doing productive.


Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Olbaid on January 16, 2009, 11:29:07 PM
+1

^ Knack's most common post.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Smokey on January 16, 2009, 11:33:41 PM
Let's respect the old-timers.

Snipen, Picasso, Sharon and Sandman should be mods too.

Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 16, 2009, 11:44:36 PM
how are you smokey? I MISS YOU!
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: iEATnoobs on January 16, 2009, 11:56:24 PM
+2

In before lock.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: FlaMe_ on January 17, 2009, 12:22:08 AM
3
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: JiGSaW on January 17, 2009, 12:22:32 AM
+10

I don't think he should be anything to this community, other than just a regular member, just like everyone else.  
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: nub on January 17, 2009, 12:25:59 AM
I am going to agree with this.
When I saw the forum post about Navyseal, I wanted to add some input but the thread was locked up before I could do anything. I understand sometimes if it is getting out of hand. In my eyes the forums are more for the opinion of the community more than anything.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 17, 2009, 12:38:15 AM
I am going to agree with this.
When I saw the forum post about Navyseal, I wanted to add some input but the thread was locked up before I could do anything. I understand sometimes if it is getting out of hand. In my eyes the forums are more for the opinion of the community more than anything.

I think you really summed up my point with your last sentence. "In my eyes the forums are more for the opinion of the community more than anything." I believe Knack is, in many cases, preventing this from happening.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Spook on January 17, 2009, 12:39:31 AM
Too many topics are being locked, that's for sure and no one can argue differently. Opinions need to be expressed and not repressed before everyone gets their input in. Maybe having knack as a global moderator should be looked at again. Sure he's been around a long time, but is of no asset to this game or community anymore. You either play, or help, and he seems to be doing neither.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 17, 2009, 12:49:46 AM
Thanks Spook, different words that are helping to convey the same message.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: atmays on January 17, 2009, 03:48:12 AM
I cant believe im saying this but, I agree with bix, now I gotta wash my mouth out with soap. Reason being when I go to respond to Vicious. After stating:

"Things don't get done because basically nobody who wants a feature is willing to step forward and work on it themselves. You cry, "new engine!" - why don't you go and find a suitable engine, see what would need to be changed to let it support DP, and start adapting it. The problem has nothing to do with "people who only play once every year" saying no, and usually for a good reason, it's because people who want features don't want to have to work for them."

Well I will respond to that now. Who says im not working on a better engine and trying to fix it up to support DP. I have talked to many of players about this. Before I HAD to go to Air Force Basic training I was on all the time working with kaos looking at engines. Thinking of ways to mod it and such. If I had the time it would have been done. Also not everyone can code and do the things that they would like to see. Can you at least PM me and tell me what you mean by " people who want features don't want to have to work for them."

Is you suggesting us kiss jitspoe ass or something? Like I stated some people dont know how to do the things they ask for, thats why they are asking.

But ANYWAYS I agree with bix.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: DrRickDaglessMD on January 17, 2009, 05:10:59 AM
I'm actually stunned. It's posts and replies like this that make me just want to leave this community to rot in the ignorance and squalor it's so fond of.

Who in this thread so far is a productive member of the community? Sure, there are one or two old names, but who actually does anything useful but whine? no-one. Until you children get a grasp on what it takes to organise and moderate a community of this size, for no reward (and apparently no gratitude either) then just don't even think about commenting on it.

Atmays, I agree that I was hoping that thread would continue for longer seeing as we had some good posts, but I completely understand why it was locked, as I imagine this one will be. Simply saying 'I'm not flaming' doesn't mean you aren't making personal attacks. And frankly, your comments about improving the engine is worth nothing - what do we care unless you have something to show for it? No-one is going to say 'atmays is a really constructive member of the community, let's make him global moderator because he thought about adding some stuff to the engine but was really busy'.

Knack isn't just a regular member, the hours he's put in moderating this forum and everything else earn him the right to some respect. When you kids grow up, I hope you'll come to acknowledge what this kind of effort is worth.

Dissapointing.

- Dagless M.D
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Sonny on January 17, 2009, 06:05:17 AM
+11 let's start a riot :)
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Re on January 17, 2009, 06:51:54 AM
I'm actually stunned. It's posts and replies like this that make me just want to leave this community to rot in the ignorance and squalor it's so fond of.

Who in this thread so far is a productive member of the community? Sure, there are one or two old names, but who actually does anything useful but whine? no-one. Until you children get a grasp on what it takes to organise and moderate a community of this size, for no reward (and apparently no gratitude either) then just don't even think about commenting on it.

Atmays, I agree that I was hoping that thread would continue for longer seeing as we had some good posts, but I completely understand why it was locked, as I imagine this one will be. Simply saying 'I'm not flaming' doesn't mean you aren't making personal attacks. And frankly, your comments about improving the engine is worth nothing - what do we care unless you have something to show for it? No-one is going to say 'atmays is a really constructive member of the community, let's make him global moderator because he thought about adding some stuff to the engine but was really busy'.

Knack isn't just a regular member, the hours he's put in moderating this forum and everything else earn him the right to some respect. When you kids grow up, I hope you'll come to acknowledge what this kind of effort is worth.

Dissapointing.

- Dagless M.D

Well said!  Dagless, your statements sum up exactly why I choose not to post here much.   ::)
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: idias on January 17, 2009, 09:11:24 AM
First off this thread is not meant to be offensive or flaming, instead constructive to the wellbeing of the DigitalPaintball 2 forums.

Even that you say that it is still offensive.

First off I would like to ask simply what Knack does for the community.

...ur kidding me right?...

Im not anyone to talk since im just a noob here...but still...even I can see that knack does more than enough not to have these atacks.



Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 17, 2009, 10:04:40 AM
I'm actually stunned. It's posts and replies like this that make me just want to leave this community to rot in the ignorance and squalor it's so fond of.

Who in this thread so far is a productive member of the community? Sure, there are one or two old names, but who actually does anything useful but whine? no-one. Until you children get a grasp on what it takes to organise and moderate a community of this size, for no reward (and apparently no gratitude either) then just don't even think about commenting on it.

Atmays, I agree that I was hoping that thread would continue for longer seeing as we had some good posts, but I completely understand why it was locked, as I imagine this one will be. Simply saying 'I'm not flaming' doesn't mean you aren't making personal attacks. And frankly, your comments about improving the engine is worth nothing - what do we care unless you have something to show for it? No-one is going to say 'atmays is a really constructive member of the community, let's make him global moderator because he thought about adding some stuff to the engine but was really busy'.

Knack isn't just a regular member, the hours he's put in moderating this forum and everything else earn him the right to some respect. When you kids grow up, I hope you'll come to acknowledge what this kind of effort is worth.

Dissapointing.

- Dagless M.D

I actually do like your post Dagless. So far the people who have posted are active people of the clan scene who wish to see it prosper. You most likely do not see that side of the game because you don't participate in the clan scene.

Knack does something for the community, that is for sure. Although, it seems he is almost counterproductive with all the locked threads, bans/tbans, and removed threads. The basis for this thread is to examine whether knack is truly benefitting the forums, and on a larger scale, dp.

Dagless, I am grown up and I realize he is moderating the forums. I just personally do not believe it is being done in the correct manner. I also do not believe he needs respect when he locks/removes 50% of the threads when they have to potential, never pubs (as far as my knowledge), and is hiding on IRC. I say he is 'hiding on irc' since I have tried to contact him in many instances with no reply. 

Even that you say that it is still offensive.

...ur kidding me right?...

Im not anyone to talk since im just a noob here...but still...even I can see that knack does more than enough not to have these atacks.

Idias, I also like your post as it draws up several good points. I often believe that the line between offensive and constructive is often blurred in these forums. In many cases Knack sees to take the offensive side which thus becomes counterproductive. Which is hindering the potential that these forums could be much more constructive. We all know Knack's presence on the forums, but outside of that what does he do? He is active no where but on the forums.

Furthermore, I appreciate feedback from both sides of the issue. Remember, THIS IS CONSTRUCTIVE, NOT OFFENSIVE.

EDIT: Made some grammar changes to prevent me from looking like an idiot as many people do on here.



Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: DrRickDaglessMD on January 17, 2009, 11:02:02 AM
I no longer participate in the clan scene because a) it's degenerated into mostly nothing but fly-by-night newbie clans who endlessly leave servers before the scorelimit in some weird childish effort to claim they didn't concede a loss, b) there weren't really many clans good enough to give us a regular run for our money other than er33t at the time, c) we all have other priorities than playing computer games. My clan is [-DarkP-], which may have been before your time - we entered the first PBCup as 2B0 with Pureblood from MeMi and Nhan from GT and took second place to er33t. So please don't insinuate I don't know anything about the clan scene in this game.

That aside, point C is the important one to note in this discussion. It's the reason Knack and anyone else who contributes to this community's effort should be valued, and also the reason why I assume you and your supporters are not mature individuals (which may be wrong of me, if so I apologise). No-one with a family, a job, or any other commitments gives their time to something like this nonchalantly. If they do, it is an act of generosity worth recognising, only those who are at school (and so have lots of spare time) or the unemployed might not realise this distinction.

I don't doubt that those contributors are active in the clan scene and would wish to see it regain popularity, but what measures have they taken to achieve that goal? If we return to the now locked thread about 'How to make the DP clan scene grow', all I see is a few interesting and constructive posts mixed in with a huge amount of garbage, including you being banned for a week. If you want to be constructive, why not take a leaf out of QeHs's book and go out of your way to promote training teams, regular matching and training sessions, good relationships with other clans, etc...

But instead, you'd all rather just contribute mindlessly to a thread which is supposedly not out to cause offence - how do you think Knack will feel when he reads this? especially after the time he's spent cleaning up after endless dimwitted posts which make this forum such a drudge?

- Dag
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: idias on January 17, 2009, 11:03:47 AM
Idias, I also like your post as it draws up several good points. I often believe that the line between offensive and constructive is often blurred in these forums. In many cases Knack sees to take the offensive side which thus becomes counterproductive. Which is hindering the potential that these forums could be much more constructive. We all know Knack's presence on the forums, but outside of that what does he do? He is active no where but on the forums.

Furthermore, I appreciate feedback from both sides of the issue. Remember, THIS IS CONSTRUCTIVE, NOT OFFENSIVE.

I agree with you in that point, but the fact that Knack is just active on the forum is irrelevant.
I stand up to the fact that you have a point in some things...but this is still an offensive thread. I mean one thing is to try and solve problems  in a constructive way...but the way ur putting things is an attack to Knacks job in this forum!

  
-I Rest My Case-

Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: ViciouZ on January 17, 2009, 11:06:55 AM
Moderating the forums isn't a reward or priviledge for helping out the game or clans that play it, it's a job in itself. KnacK can no longer play the game because he now uses satellite internet which results in unplayably high (~600) pings. So, he chooses to help out by moderating the forums and website. Recently, more topics have been locked than usual, but generally that is from the nature of the discussions, not the moderator. I do agree that the current moderation policy is a bit harsh on regards to locking topics instead of banning users and removing posts, but everyone makes mistakes, and it's a lot easier to lock a topic than pruning posts when the workload is as large as it has been recently.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: idias on January 17, 2009, 11:15:54 AM
After what ViciouZ said I only have on thing to say...Lock it (And this is a justifiable case to lock a thread I think)
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: JiGSaW on January 17, 2009, 01:10:58 PM
Dagless, you're not around much at all to say anything.  Don't come into the thread saying you're going to leave the community and whatnot, leave it if it's so "terrible".  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

idias, i'm pretty sure you have no say in this either, you haven't even been around for a month.

Bix, I'm still agreeing with you 100% on this, I could watch this forum and run it better than KnacK could.  As a matter a fact, why not let mewa moderate the forums, he's on this game 24/7.



Yes the mewa comment was sarcastic, but not the 24/7 part.

Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: DrRickDaglessMD on January 17, 2009, 01:21:20 PM
It wasn't a threat, the point I was making is that it makes me (and I imagine any other proactive member of this community) just think you ingrates aren't worth a second thought when we've all got better things to do. The fact you're goading people like Knack, me, Viciouz, etc... to leave the community because of your godawful attitudes just stands as testament to the ignorance abound here.

- Dag
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: P!nk on January 17, 2009, 01:39:33 PM
ViciouZ has summarized the reasons behind what Knack does pretty well, so I'd just like to add a few things:

1. He is/was a moderator on another forum with 80K members, hence he does have administrative experience.
2. Genuinely good person, isn't a people pleaser/seeking power, he really wants what is best for this game, the perfect replacement for Fryth.
3. Quite helpful, but only with those that are willing to learn and don't show signs of laziness and/or being asshats, he challenges them to be better.
4. Obvious game experience, no need to go into that, he has a record, but that's not the only reason he's a mod, having a reputation built up is the first step to being an influential leader.

And no, before you use it against me too in an attempt to discredit this entire post, I'm not active in the matching community anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't care about it or wouldn't stop someone that was trying to make it worse. I thought Knack should be a moderator before he was one, and the reasons listed above were just as true then as they are now.

I would like to ask if you agree with this statement:
Because Knack is inactive, he does not fully understand the situations the threads discuss, therefore he only sees the negative sides, and locks them.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: m7feettall on January 17, 2009, 02:44:39 PM
It would seem Knack is a moderator because Jitspoe trusts his judgment in that capacity. I doubt any other reason matters.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: idias on January 17, 2009, 05:53:37 PM
idias, i'm pretty sure you have no say in this either, you haven't even been around for a month.

Where do you get those facts? I come here at least 3 times a week or more...just because i don't post doesn't mean im not here.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: painted on January 17, 2009, 06:30:51 PM
hi all i dont come here lots of times...im a friend of idias and he told me the thing...for what ive read in the past comments ...actually i never met knack  at all...im nowone to talk about this situation...so im just gonna do what im suposed to do in this forum...i think...as far as ive seen..that knack isnt rlly up to the job of bein global moderator..i know that maybe i dont have right reasons as i said im just judgin by what i saw till now.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: painted on January 17, 2009, 06:31:50 PM
Moderating the forums isn't a reward or priviledge for helping out the game or clans that play it, it's a job in itself.
 So, he chooses to help out by moderating the forums and website.

But i do agree with viciouz... i mean everyone does makes mistakes...
and i Believe that moderating this forum isnt a joke... i
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: vLaD on January 17, 2009, 07:25:13 PM
well one thing ill have to agree on is its a forum this is what its made for why lock the thread? forums are made for people opinions negative or positive. that way we can get to know the attitude of the people that play in dp. dp forums is supposed to be our gossip channel.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: painted on January 17, 2009, 07:32:37 PM
why lock the thread? forums are made for people opinions negative or positive. that way we can get to know the attitude of the people that play in dp.

I tottaly agree except in the gossip channel part... but yes if moderators keep lockin threaths then this wouldnt be a forum where ppl express their ideias...that way ppl could only say what moderators wanted them to say
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: lekky on January 17, 2009, 07:51:46 PM
Its extremely hard to moderate a forum. To distiunguish between those posts/threads that are legitimate, and those that are offensive or a waste of time. I think we should remove "Knack" from the equation and talk more about the processes and rules regarding what should be locked and what should not be locked. I myself may not agree with how the forum is moderated, but I can symphasise with the rigours of the role.

I think this thread would be better suited with a forum moderation focus, rather than what seems to be a personal attack, even if this wasn't originally the goal.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 17, 2009, 08:00:56 PM
I no longer participate in the clan scene because a) it's degenerated into mostly nothing but fly-by-night newbie clans who endlessly leave servers before the scorelimit in some weird childish effort to claim they didn't concede a loss, b) there weren't really many clans good enough to give us a regular run for our money other than er33t at the time, c) we all have other priorities than playing computer games. My clan is [-DarkP-], which may have been before your time - we entered the first PBCup as 2B0 with Pureblood from MeMi and Nhan from GT and took second place to er33t. So please don't insinuate I don't know anything about the clan scene in this game.

That aside, point C is the important one to note in this discussion. It's the reason Knack and anyone else who contributes to this community's effort should be valued, and also the reason why I assume you and your supporters are not mature individuals (which may be wrong of me, if so I apologise). No-one with a family, a job, or any other commitments gives their time to something like this nonchalantly. If they do, it is an act of generosity worth recognising, only those who are at school (and so have lots of spare time) or the unemployed might not realise this distinction.

I don't doubt that those contributors are active in the clan scene and would wish to see it regain popularity, but what measures have they taken to achieve that goal? If we return to the now locked thread about 'How to make the DP clan scene grow', all I see is a few interesting and constructive posts mixed in with a huge amount of garbage, including you being banned for a week. If you want to be constructive, why not take a leaf out of QeHs's book and go out of your way to promote training teams, regular matching and training sessions, good relationships with other clans, etc...

But instead, you'd all rather just contribute mindlessly to a thread which is supposedly not out to cause offence - how do you think Knack will feel when he reads this? especially after the time he's spent cleaning up after endless dimwitted posts which make this forum such a drudge?

- Dag

I never insulted you not knowing about the clan scene, you just simply are not up the times as I indicated. Furthermore to you Dag, I was banned from the forums for simply indicating a truth that many people agree upon. That the committee members in many cases are not as active in DP as they should be, they see what Knack leaves on the forums. Almost like if a jury only saw one point of view of a case, their decision would be altered. Finally on this post Dag I would like to talk about what you said about how Knack would feel when he sees this. Not only has he been ONLINE during 3 posts I have made on here, he was online when I made the post. I know he has seen this post and I would love for his input since this thread is about Knack, or forum moderation as lekky indicated.

-----

This post will be a bit more candid. Once again I want to touch upon the line of offensive and productive. Most of the discussions on this forum DO offend someone, but are meant to be productive. Where Knack sees this line I cannot control, but he often seems to see nearly every post as offensive. I understand he is trying to make the forums a better place but locking everything that is along the lines of productive/offensive isn't correct.

-------

To P!nk. This whole post isn't about being active in the community and that was not my intent. Although it does have a great influence on the thread. To be someone with power you should understand and know the context of the situations.      

"I would like to ask if you agree with this statement:
Because Knack is inactive, he does not fully understand the situations the threads discuss, therefore he only sees the negative sides, and locks them." -P!nk.

Yes, I do agree with that statement nearly fully. Although I feel, being candid, that Knack is abusing his power on these forums. I am just simply expressing my feelings. There are no forums rules and I believe they should a place to express both negative and positive feelings, as Vlad said.

------

Lekky, I would love to remove Knack from the equation. Although, Knack = moderation. We can start to use the term 'moderation' since they equal the exact same thing. If the thread is not racist or a personal attack, I believe it should not be locked.


EDIT: Knack was online as I typed and posted this post and is currently online right now. REDUNDANCY



Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: S8NSSON on January 17, 2009, 08:14:38 PM
LOL VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!

Leave knack alone people.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Zorchenhimer on January 17, 2009, 10:05:05 PM
dp forums is supposed to be our gossip channel.

That is where you are wrong.  Jitspoe pays for the server that hosts these forums, and he can do whatever he wants with them.  He has appointed Knack as global moderator because he thought Knack was well fit for the job.  End of story.  I honestly don't think they (Jits, and the global mods) even care about what anyone thinks when it comes to moderating practices.

If I were a mod, I probably would have locked this thread by now.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: atmays on January 17, 2009, 10:15:53 PM
In no way shape or form did I post to say knack was a bad person or moderator. He has did a few things with the clan scene also, remember servers for InT? Knack is a great guy. My issue is just and only the threads being locked, that is my only problem, can't speak for the others. I can't say I do a lot for this community, but I can say that when I was active I was helping new clans and players, learn specifics of the game and such. Its plenty of players that still play that I have showed the game. Since I joined the air force I haven't had time for anything.

To sum it all up, dag I agree with you bout some things. I'm not very productive in this community, I'm still a amature
 programmer, still learning. I myself probably couldn't mod these forums, but its not my job to mod the forums. I'm not looking to be mod, just gave my opinion on the matter that's it.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: gonass on January 18, 2009, 12:53:38 AM
First off this thread is not meant to be offensive or flaming, instead constructive to the wellbeing of the DigitalPaintball 2 forums. First off I would like to ask simply what Knack does for the community. Next I would like to know why he is a Global Moderator. I realize that he is an 'authority figure', but why? Knack doesn't pub. He is on IRC but it is essentially pointless since I have tried to contact him multiple times with no replies. He appears to just read the forums and discuss without fulling knowing the context of the discussion.


Not to mention he deletes a thread in which i point out that he himself broke the rules of the forum.  Hiding something are we knack?
Looking through some of the threads in this section I have came to realize that 50% roughly of the threads are locked (idea originally found by Mewa). I made a thread about navyseal hacking, the thread was constructive and there was no flaming. Within about 2 hours it was locked and moved to where the committee can deal with it.

It just seems that Knack is patrolling the forums in a way that is not needed. He contributes very little, if at all, to the community other than the fact that he locks nearly every thread...constructive or not.

Once again, this thread is not meant to be offensive or flaming. Simply to discuss why Knack is a Global Moderator, and what he is doing productive.



Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: gonass on January 18, 2009, 12:54:20 AM
^^^ meant to say not to mention he deletes a thread in which i pointed out how he broke the forum rules.  Hiding something are we knack?
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: mewa on January 18, 2009, 01:10:54 AM
When I started this general conversation in the other thread it wasn't a personal attack, nor could it have been since there is no trail accountability of administrators. I'm not sure who does the most locking or control of the forums, but Bix seems to think it's Knack. He's been around a lot longer than me and I trust he has some decent reason to believe this. At the end of the day it's a confrontation to the moderators in general, and if Knack is the head admin then it seems logical he be held accountable.

I think a lot of these issues could be resolved or alleviated simply by providing some individual accountability. I was just banned for what I thought were incredibly appropriate post's. I couldn't stop laughing when I tried to come to the forums and received the message ~"sorry mewa, you have been banned from these forums. please see the post." Pretty simple solutions, when a mod locks a post or bans a player;

a.) The admin makes a reply in the thread stating the whys and possibly some insights into their thought process. you may not be able to convince someone of the validity of your action, but you might be able to allow them to understand how you got to that point.

b.) The admin sends the player an email copy (if there's one provided in their profile) of the last posting in the thread, which explains reasoning.


I'm almost certain this could releave a lot of the animosity felt by many people here towards the admins. Without this type of information the player is just left to the wheel of fortune the admins seem to spin. It doesn't give people a whole lot of hope to see a discussion they are actively posting in, or just very interested in, put on hold forever.

I think most of us realize that this game requires a degree of volunteerism to remain active, and those who can help out, do. But just because you give your time doesn't mean you're right. They're shouldn't be any free passes around here, but there seems to be quite a few. Seniority can count, but there needs to be some place to draw the line. These blanket statements saying essentially "anyone who I haven't known for 5yrs+ has excrement for brains and nothing to contribute to this game, let alone the forum" are pretty absurd and elitists. If you really thought this thread was hogwash you wouldn't be wasting your precious time refuting some insignificant opinions.

Zorchenheimer - I'm sorry, but this is a god awful idea. Are you suggesting that the admins lock a thread which discusses they're locking too many threads simply because they can, or don't want to hear this type of talk? Is this community so Stalinist that it can't handle a civil conversation about its authority figures? That would be a sad day and reeks of weakness.

Sure these servers are all privately paid and no one has absolute right to them except the money holder, but don't forget that this game is public. When you go into a store or a bar (pub) you are entering a private establishment, who can do w/e it is they please. If they don't want you in there, you will be excused. But few places are dumb enough to toss a sizable portion of its regular customers just because of a difference in opinion. The bartender might not like the drunks always complaining about the lack of music, but he's not giving them the boot for it either. Chances are he'd go buy a small jukebox to shut them up and keep them in his pub.

All this talk of drinkin, it's time I went to meet my friend Fleischman's and stopped thinking.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: e4g1e on January 18, 2009, 04:49:27 AM
 isn't it strange that knack hasn't retaliated to this unlike Mewa's thread O_o

(i would rather not join any side but i am against admin abuse.)

~e4g1e

P.S paragraphs are so hard to read on a crappy dell lcd :D
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: blaa on January 18, 2009, 04:51:45 AM
 Knack as a global moderator?

1. He is not a perfect global mod.
2. Nobody is perfect.
3. Knack is best for the job.

What irritates me the most is not the times when he locks some thread too quickly (some say), but those inside jokes (lol) with zorchenhimer (Hahahaha). It's really annoying >:-D
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: idias on January 18, 2009, 06:57:07 AM
isn't it strange that knack hasn't retaliated to this unlike Mewa's thread O_o

hmmmm...

First off this thread is not meant to be offensive or flaming, instead constructive to the wellbeing of the DigitalPaintball 2 forums.(...)

You have to reestablish the line between the wellbeing of the forum and personal attacks to people that are doing their job...unfortunetly like blaa says Knack is not perfect but he works more than most of us for the wellbeing of the forum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

Please give me more reasons to believe that Knack shouldn't moderate than the fact that he locks posts. He does lock posts too fast, but most of the time he has good reasons.

  -idias







Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Re on January 18, 2009, 07:22:46 AM
Keep up the good work Knack   ;D

If I still ran a forum, I'd hire you in less than a minute  :o
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 18, 2009, 10:07:12 AM
The only reason I say Knack is the one locking all the threads is because he always post at the end before he locks it. "Locked and moved for review." or "Locked".

This forum is meant for discussion, and Knack doesn't allow anything.

He is 'nazing' these forums. Controlling all the posts, removing anything he does not like. I don't think it is right for the community, or these forums.

Also pretty weird how all the people that side with Knack are the "forum trolls" who's presence is felt no where but these forums.

EDIT: Maybe some people can open their eyes and realize that offensive posts can lead to productivity. People need to be able to discuss here, or these forums are essentially pointless.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: S8NSSON on January 18, 2009, 11:10:39 AM
"He is 'nazing' these forums."

That offends me...BAN HIM
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: i_am_a_pirate on January 18, 2009, 11:50:30 AM
All this talk about how it's not a personal attack at KnacK... erm.. you specifically put his name in the thread. I bet the reason why he hasn't replied is that he's typing up his post in notepad. :D
Knack as a global moderator?

1. He is not a perfect global mod.
2. Nobody is perfect.
3. Knack is best for the job.

What irritates me the most is not the times when he locks some thread too quickly (some say), but those inside jokes (lol) with zorchenhimer (Hahahaha). It's really annoying >:-D
Exactly right

Personally  I'm quite mixed on all this. I think that he does a great job, but can take it a little too far. Some posts I read (without seeing who posted it) and immediately think: 'ooh, he's gonna get an ass-whooping from KnacK for saying that' and I see that KnacK posted it.
I think that other people could do the job maybe a bit more in-depth and they could look at the issue closer before locking a thread, but seriously, the amount of time KnacK has put into this is crazy. He deserves to stay as mod, even if he does annoy the crap outa me some people sometimes
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: blaa on January 18, 2009, 11:58:37 AM
I think that other people could do the job maybe a bit more in-depth and they could look at the issue closer before locking a thread

I think he closes the threads because he does look at the issue very closely!!!
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: idias on January 18, 2009, 12:43:24 PM
The only reason I say Knack is the one locking all the threads is because he always post at the end before he locks it. "Locked and moved for review." or "Locked".

This forum is meant for discussion, and Knack doesn't allow anything.

He is 'nazing' these forums. Controlling all the posts, removing anything he does not like. I don't think it is right for the community, or these forums.

Also pretty weird how all the people that side with Knack are the "forum trolls" who's presence is felt no where but these forums.

EDIT: Maybe some people can open their eyes and realize that offensive posts can lead to productivity. People need to be able to discuss here, or these forums are essentially pointless.

I repeat if he is active or inactive in-game is irrelevant.

And Bix naziing is a litlle too extreme and you say controling the posts like if it was bad...correct me if im wrong but isn't that part of his job?

And you say the ones who support him are "forum trolls" that only exist in forum...funny I've never seen you play...maybe because of time-zones...but don't throw facts that are not true...stop attacking everyone!
You say Knack usees his powers too much if that is the case defend ur point without being rude.

Sorry for my rudeness, idias.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: DrRickDaglessMD on January 18, 2009, 01:37:38 PM
I repeat if he is active or inactive in-game is irrelevant.

And Bix naziing is a litlle too extreme and you say controling the posts like if it was bad...correct me if im wrong but isn't that part of his job?

And you say the ones who support him are "forum trolls" that only exist in forum...funny I've never seen you play...maybe because of time-zones...but don't throw facts that are not true...stop attacking everyone!
You say Knack usees his powers too much if that is the case defend ur point without being rude.

Sorry for my rudeness, idias.


Agreed 100%. You might not have seen me because I rarely play under DaglessMD, but by the same token I've never seen you Bix. You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the fact that endlessly announcing that your argument is not meant to offend and isn't a personal attack doesn't make it true.

Quote
This post will be a bit more candid. Once again I want to touch upon the line of offensive and productive. Most of the discussions on this forum DO offend someone, but are meant to be productive

What a ridiculous statement. What discussions on this forum tick those boxes? I'm sure in your head, mewa's and your own threads about forum moderation lately do, but they are the point of contention. What else? criticism in the mapping forum? That is a required part of the tacitly peer-reviewed map development in this community, and the only ones who offend or are offended are the immature contributors who can't bring themselves to contribute or take valid criticism constructively. Any more? Cheaters and Bans discussion? Just a load of unfettered not-so-righteous indignation posts and idle speculation or proclaimations of dissapointment/anger. Again, where is the co-existence of offensiveness AND constructiveness?

In the interests of a positive community spirit, no-one should have to be offended when they come to be part of it.

And mewa, this game is not 'public'. It happens to be freely distributed, but the financial and opportunity cost of development is paid by people like Knack, jitspoe, server owners, etc... You, nor anyone else has an intrinsic human right to dictate anything about this game or community, it is through the generosity of jitspoe that you even have things like the feature vote to help him prioritise development to please the most number of people. You and I are here but by the grace of those who spend their time to build and maintain this mod and community, the very least you can do is give them some support.

- Dagless MD
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: painted on January 18, 2009, 01:45:50 PM
Agreed 100%. You might not have seen me because I rarely play under DaglessMD, but by the same token I've never seen you Bix. You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the fact that endlessly announcing that your argument is not meant to offend and isn't a personal attack doesn't make it true.

What a ridiculous statement. What discussions on this forum tick those boxes? I'm sure in your head, mewa's and your own threads about forum moderation lately do, but they are the point of contention. What else? criticism in the mapping forum? That is a required part of the tacitly peer-reviewed map development in this community, and the only ones who offend or are offended are the immature contributors who can't bring themselves to contribute or take valid criticism constructively. Any more? Cheaters and Bans discussion? Just a load of unfettered not-so-righteous indignation posts and idle speculation or proclaimations of dissapointment/anger. Again, where is the co-existence of offensiveness AND constructiveness?

In the interests of a positive community spirit, no-one should have to be offended when they come to be part of it.

And mewa, this game is not 'public'. It happens to be freely distributed, but the financial and opportunity cost of development is paid by people like Knack, jitspoe, server owners, etc... You, nor anyone else has an intrinsic human right to dictate anything about this game or community, it is through the generosity of jitspoe that you even have things like the feature vote to help him prioritise development to please the most number of people. You and I are here but by the grace of those who spend their time to build and maintain this mod and community, the very least you can do is give them some support.

- Dagless MD

HEAR HEAR!! i guess he said it all i agreed 100%
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: P!nk on January 18, 2009, 02:23:56 PM
I think some of you need to look at this (http://x56.xanga.com/d5585271566a8183708200/b140731364.jpg). Dropping to the Ad Hominem level makes for a very weak argument. I also think that's how a lot of mods decide if they should close something, the lower levels indicate a flame fest is in progress or will begin shortly. And guess how many locked threads from the first two pages of this section can be justified with it :D
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: blaa on January 18, 2009, 02:52:26 PM
hjk
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Re on January 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PM

Also pretty weird how all the people that side with Knack are the "forum trolls" who's presence is felt no where but these forums.

Funny you say that since I play on the 3ioB pub almost every day. I played there while you were there within the last few days.
/me starts "trolling:  LoL
  :P
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: blaa on January 18, 2009, 03:44:55 PM
 Well im on Knack's side and I generally dislike those trollers you are mentioning. By trollers I mean eii and zorch. Dont even remember if they have posted on this thread.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: RiDe on January 18, 2009, 07:07:04 PM

...funny I've never seen you play...
Bix is on almost everyday..
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 18, 2009, 08:08:33 PM
Idias, you may need to check IRC. Look at DT's guide for newbies. I founded/run the best clan, record wise, in dp. #team_3iob. We are also normally the channel that besides #paintball, has the most people. I am normally around everyday and pub very little. I choose to do pickup games (started by me) or match because playing pubs can be pathetic. I think I pub more than 95% of the people in the higher end match scene, going 30-1 in a pub doesn't please me. I think i_am_a_pirate hit the correct fact. He is doing a good job, but takes it a bit too far sometimes. Knack cannot possibly know the context of every thread, due to the fact his presence isn't found in the clan scene, pubs, or IRC for the most part.

Furthermore, I do not mean to attack knack.  Since we have came to the conclusion Knack does = moderation, I am just substituting the word Knack for moderation.

EDIT: I think we should get back to the premises of this thread. Is Knack going too far?
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: vague312 on January 18, 2009, 09:29:56 PM
I think something like

Topic "Knack"
Body "Knack, could you calm down a bit with locking threads" or "Can you give posters a "get back on topic" warning before closing the thread"

Might get you a bit further.

Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 18, 2009, 09:40:07 PM
If you could understand my english that is probably using a vocabulary higher than your own you would understand that is what I am saying.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: wafflez205 on January 18, 2009, 09:49:36 PM
This is the most idiotic thread EVER! Has anyone gone into the help section? Knack goes in there and tries to help every person he can in there and he is usually the most helpful guy in there.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 18, 2009, 09:53:10 PM
He also locks most threads that are trying to be constructive. It isn't about Knack helping people, it is about how he is locking too many threads thus not allowing people to express/discuss. People need to read my posts/posts in this forum in full before they start posting. Does being helpful mean you are a good moderator? It means you are a helpful moderator, not necessarily good.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: wafflez205 on January 18, 2009, 10:03:23 PM
All of the mods lock threads and the creators lock them too. If I was a mod I would lock this thread because it just about some people whining just because the mods aren't doing things the way they want them to
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 18, 2009, 10:10:21 PM
I am not whining, I am simply indicating that Knack isn't allowing these forums to be a place of discussion. He is locking too many threads, and is going too far in many cases.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Dirty_Taco on January 18, 2009, 10:14:19 PM
Quote
I think we should remove "Knack" from the equation and talk more about the processes and rules regarding what should be locked and what should not be locked.

Lekky, there are no 'processes' or 'rules' with respect to the forum administration. In fact there is truly nothing objective about it.

I was banned for a joke post saying 'i think jitspoe should add banana hovercrafts' for an indefinite period of time (i.e. it wasn't a '2 week' ban, but a forever ban). Bans/locked threads arise from a conflict of value systems with forum goers and forum administrators. They do not arise from posts/threads that deviate from a set of 'rules' that go along with forum posting.

I've contributed more to this community than the mass majority of its members, but that contribution has always been held irrespective of whatever post is conflicting with the value systems of the forum administration.

If saying 'well look at what knack has contributed to the community' is a relevant point in judging his forum administration ability, then it should be a relevant point if i decide to make a joke post on some newbie in the 'clans' board, for example. However, i guarantee you my contribution to the community would never cross a forum administrators mind.

I think something that is important to recognize in light of a lot of the recent discussions is that in the same way the purchasing power of the middle class fuels the American economy, (not wall street) a healthy, growing clan scene fuels the DP community.

A strong clan scene provides

1.) servers
2.) new quality maps
3.) tournaments
4.) a (usually) consistently fun method for playing this game

Severely strict forum administration is one way of diminishing the clan scene. Many of the well known, respected members of the clan scene that have had integral parts in all four of those areas do not visit the forums any more because they cannot express opinions or enjoy themselves without being banned.

While I unfortunately do not think this thread will ultimately change anything I do think it is good to see the rising number of people that want less strict forum administration. Everyone should note that this number would be much higher if so many people had not already been scared away from the forums by strict forum administration.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 18, 2009, 10:24:51 PM
"Severely strict forum administration is one way of diminishing the clan scene. Many of the well known, respected members of the clan scene that have had integral parts in all four of those areas do not visit the forums any more because they cannot express opinions or enjoy themselves without being banned." -Dirtytaco

This quote really seems to sum up my intent. It is the same people posting over and over that are supporting the current way of forum moderating. Yet there are more total people that agree that the forum moderation is too strict.

For this game the clan scene plays a huge role in prospering of this game. It has been decreasing which is why I made a post several weeks ago to help it. I came to the conclusion this forum was not ready to help the clan scene become stronger.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: y00tz on January 18, 2009, 10:29:02 PM
Lekky, there are no 'processes' or 'rules' with respect to the forum administration. In fact there is truly nothing objective about it.

That is more or less true, we have roughly five basic guidelines that rely on personal judgment.  Although, Lekky does have a point.  As far as I know, KnacK isn't doing anything wrong, he is clearly following all the guidelines for moderation, just more strictly than jitspoe and I  (which is not necessarily bad).  

Given the public outcry, I think it's perfectly reasonable to update the forum rules and guidelines, and I would support a more transparent representation of the moderators' actions.  I'm hesitant to say process, I think moderator discussion is more affective than cut and dry rules in some cases, especially when the 'correct' course of action by the rules would be much harsher than what the moderators might agree on.  I would like to see rules that don't necessarily require the same process every time, with reasonable accommodations.  For example, if Lekky, Eiii, Cobo, Dagless, DT, etc. make a one word reply, their post history and past are carried with them, and the post is clearly more valuable than a one-word post from someone who just registered.  (In the latter case, the post is usually something like 'lol'.)

I urge all of you to consider that sifting through literally hundreds of forum posts every week is an exhausting job and one that KnacK has never recently, nor in the past been praised or thanked for.   Looking through the last 20 deleted posts that I didn't have to deal with (spam, one is just titled "." and says "." in the message, and many more of the same old worthless posts). I must say, thanks KnacK.


You hard ass. :P
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Olbaid on January 18, 2009, 10:29:22 PM
All of the mods lock threads and the creators lock them too. If I was a mod I would lock this thread because it just about some people whining just because the mods aren't doing things the way they want them to


From what I read in this thread, no one has been whining about anything.  Just because people are expressing that they do not agree with how things are being handled does not classify them as whining.  

Personally, I have been apart of a few successful gaming communities where I actively check the forums.  From my experience, it is necessary to have some guidelines/control of forum users, but I do feel that the current moderation is a little over the top.  There needs to be more balance in the way things are handled instead of the current, "cya in a few days" or immediately locking the thread.  
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 18, 2009, 10:51:21 PM
I urge all of you to consider that sifting through literally hundreds of forum posts every week is an exhausting job and one that KnacK has never recently, nor in the past been praised or thanked for.   Looking through the last 20 deleted posts that I didn't have to deal with (spam, one is just titled "." and says "." in the message, and many more of the same old worthless posts). I must say, thanks KnacK

I think Knack is too strict and is not doing a job worth thanks. It isn't the deleted posts. It is the bans for people trying to discuss or talk about a point and the locked threads that are discussing.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: dystro on January 18, 2009, 10:59:13 PM
I personally think knack takes these forums too seriously, and he needs to tone it down a notch and remember that he's moderating a forum geared for mostly teenagers. 
(http://esum.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/serious.jpg)
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: P!nk on January 18, 2009, 11:10:02 PM
I do agree that the forum has gotten stricter (and no, I don't agree with that, hence why I didn't like the planetsuper forums very much), but I don't think the majority of the blame can be put on Knack for that happening. It was strict long before the recent increase in thread locks.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: vague312 on January 18, 2009, 11:30:11 PM
If you could understand my english that is probably using a vocabulary higher than your own you would understand that is what I am saying.

Oh my apologies. I didnt realize your post said the exact same thing except for the whole addressing the issue directly.

I thought your post was asking. What does he do for the community? Why is he a mod? Why is he an authority figure? Why is he a mod if he is stiiting around locking topics? (summed up the last one). did you get your answers? Yes or No.

First off this thread is not meant to be offensive or flaming, instead constructive to the wellbeing of the DigitalPaintball 2 forums.
If you could understand my english that is probably using a vocabulary higher than your own you would understand that is what I am saying.

Starting to look like someone is just trying to get a rise out of ppl for personal enjoyment.

good post above mine
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: wafflez205 on January 19, 2009, 01:14:53 AM
I have actually seen less bans recently and yes alot of threads have been locked but most have a good reason
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Rick on January 19, 2009, 02:41:02 AM
I agree with what Henrod said.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: mewa on January 19, 2009, 03:27:05 AM
Seems like eveyone's ready to negotiate some new forum moderating rules and find some reasonable ground. Let this stand as a prime example of a thread which could've been locked in it's early stages, but has become very productive with a lot of well formed ideas.

Couple of quick thoughts:

Can anyone explain to me why it would be more difficult or cause more trouble than benefit to ban a "flamer" or consistently off topic poster rather than locking the entire thread? It seems to make sense to punish the individual versus the entire forum (assuming the majority of the thread is productive/worthwhile and the "ruckus is isolated to a few players).

I sympathize that the task of being moderator is time consuming, repetitive and boring as hell, and yawn inspiring. My first reaction is "get lazy?". Why is it necessary to scrutinize every post in this forum? Although it may resemble it sometimes, this isn't daycare. The fear is so deep it appears that you're all afraid to turn your back for one instant because thats surely when the freight train would come ripping through shattering all the cribs. There's this little link next to every post "Report to moderator", give people that chance to use it. I'll bet if some poster is so out of line they need to be reprimanded, someone will eventually figure out they can click on those words.


"In Vegas, everybody's gotta watch everybody else. Since the players are looking to beat the casino, the dealers are watching the players. The box men are watching the dealers. The floor men are watching the box men. The pit bosses are watching the floor men. The shift bosses are watching the pit bosses. The casino manager is watching the shift bosses. I'm watching the casino manager. And the eye-in-the-sky is watching us all. "
- Ace Rothstein



now for the individuals:

P!nk - Nice graphic. Gave some order to the conversation.

yootz - Glad to hear you're in agreement with the idea of some basic accountability rules. This should at least lessen the rage factor of those who get banned/locked. I totally agree that a set of stringent laws for the mods to follow would be counterproductive and lead to a lot of chaos. But maybe some broadly defined guidelines could be of use.

dagless o' dagless - despite what you'd rather believe I, often personally thank individuals whom contribute to keeping this game in operation. It takes a small villiage and hoards of infants to maintain this game, and everyone has a role. I've volunteered to help in many different aspects myself. Sadly, once again you've totally biffed the message. I'm starting to think you pick out all the words in a prime series and make your own sentences (pretty geeky huh). If you understood analogies, you might see that what I said doesn't conflict with what you said. It's pretty simple, watch:

1.) NO excrement SOMEBODY PAYS FOR THE SERVER AND THAT SOMEBODY CONTROLS IT.

excuse me while I remove my panties from my ass cavern.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 19, 2009, 06:54:31 PM
I think this thread is to the point where everyone understands my point ----> Should moderation (Knack) be so strict?
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: flip on January 19, 2009, 07:47:58 PM
More strict on the people who just post constant negative garbage. Less strict on the thread locking but then again, who cares? DP is dying as everyone likes to say.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: lekky on January 19, 2009, 07:52:12 PM
dp has been dying for a couple of years now, just like those clothes shops that have a "closing down" sale right? :D
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Bix on January 19, 2009, 08:09:27 PM
Maybe some people like the garbage/flaming! :)
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: Dirty_Taco on January 19, 2009, 08:51:36 PM
Quote
dp has been dying for a couple of years now, just like those clothes shops that have a "closing down" sale right?

Liquidation sales = turning all your assets into cash before shut down.

I need to win the lottery, buy DP and turn it into a pro-mod.
Title: Re: Knack as Global Moderator
Post by: KnacK on January 19, 2009, 09:38:37 PM
I think this thread is to the point where everyone understands my point


Sounds good.