Digital Paint Discussion Board
Development => Mapping => Beta / In-Progress Maps => Topic started by: JMR on December 30, 2013, 05:47:46 PM
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Hello, I am proud to announce the release of the first map in the new spcup_ series - kingdom!
Description:
Behind all other kingdoms, by far, paintball kingdom packs the most action any villager has ever seen. With our old historic castle walls, deep caves, lovely countryside and our historic battered cannons (Which by the way work), you'll be visiting this kingdom often.
This map was designed for competitive matches, particularly in competitive tournaments. The map will also be played on some public servers.
This map plays best with 3v3+, but does still pack a punch with 2v2.
Features:
• Huge variety of jumps and speeds
• Castles
• 2 routes, wet and dry (or low and high)
• Cannons
• Fancy non-straight walls and realistic terrain
Current version: Beta 3
Bugs I know need fixing for the next beta:
• Somehow fix 2 lighting glitches that only happen on one side.
Information:
• 2 Flags (5pts each)
• Cap on first flag (the lowest one)
• Spawn with: loaded co2, chrome barrel and a carbine.
• Loc files coming soon!
Screenshots:
(http://i.imgur.com/sDbCdMB.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/KSf4MoG.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/D3RcHFT.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/g9L3zHW.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/8luduX6.jpg)
Downloads:
• Current beta download: http://sdrv.ms/1elKki4 (http://sdrv.ms/1elKki4)
• Txt current: http://sdrv.ms/19iz1aO (http://sdrv.ms/19iz1aO)
• Mapshot [Save as:spcup_kingdom_b3.jpg and put in beta folder of pics/mapshots: http://sdrv.ms/1elMr5o (http://sdrv.ms/1elMr5o)
NOTE: you need sk89q`s tree models and ctp1 textures on your server. If you don't have ctp1 textures: ftp://otb-server.de/pub/CTP%20-%20Community%20Texture%20and%20Model%20Pack/CTP1-Prerelease.zip
Feedback welcome! :)
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looks great man. gj
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From purely the last screenshot: Looks like a bottleneck - could seem different in game. But essentially 4 narrow paths that open to a large mid - so unless im mistaken it should be SUPER easy to sit somewhere in each path and spray out. Which wont lead to ideal gameplay.
The aesthetics look good. But it seems like (from the screenshots) that you have a fairly detailed bases - a sort of detailed mid - but the paths connecting the 2 just kinda look plain, narrow, and simple to me. I feel like connecting bases to mid could be done better?
THAT BEING SAID - THIS IS ALL FROM VIEWING SCREENSHOTS, WILL TRY IT IN GAME AFTER IM DONE WATCHING PHANTLORD KILL THE EVERY VIDEO GAME SERVER IN THE WORLD.
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Looks good on screenshots, but is it the right mapfile? When i download it and try to play in game i see just non-lighted map whole map dark. It happened to me with some other map aswell, i am starting to get suspicious if there could be sth wrong with my pb.
LOLOL What the hell is going on with pphantoml0rd, even cops are there now rofl
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Why is the map all dark when after I downloaded it and tested it on my server?
It didn't happen to me in any other map, and I tried reconnecting too.
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Yeah, sorry, completely wrong map file :-( will fix tomorrow
For now you can lease a spec server and change the map to spcup kingdom b1
paintball.jordanmrichards.com
*Sent from my phone
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Great it isnt just me! ^^
Anyway, will download it from spec server and give you feedback in edit.
EDIT1:
You missed M in your link ;)
EDIT2:
http://paintball.jordanmrichards.com/servers.html (http://paintball.jordanmrichards.com/servers.html)
link for those who wonder
command: "newmap beta/spcup_kingdom_b1"
spec 1 pw:test
login:test
you can just join to download it, if nobody lease it again
EDIT3:
So i played through the map and its pretty confusing at first glance, but after i partly understood how the map works, i think its pretty good. I cant really predict how it will play tho, its too complex.
Looks: really nice, i love the way the map looks. But there some part of terrain which look unnatural tho, i might take pictures of them later. And i didnt get textures along with your mapfile from spec servers :p
Base: Like the way higher flag is handled, if you fall from there, its harder to protect it > makes for nice tactics while grabbing. Also higher flag is much more valuable to defend because High flag is easier to get away with (not taking in account speed to 2nd which is possible and makes going High way even more risky).
Mid: Kinda too complex i feel, i think you should do something with midlow, make it a little higher so you dont fall that deep if you fail jump.
Tactics: Higher is tons faster than low (ok leme rephrase that, getting away with high flag is like 10x easier than with low flag). What that means, is all plays/rushes will be about this way and if your mates lose at that way battle, you are kinda screwed if you in the other way, you have to rush the same way, because getting to the other side from the other way is more difficult.
leme make clear something before i continue, this is getting confusing:
High way = way to low flag and cap, DRY, leads to Walls
Low way = way closer to high flag, WET, leads to Bridge(mid bridge)
I hope i am right on this, well i will just continue assuming i am.
You can rush the low way and you even made some kind of speedjump there, which is nice, it makes rushing/getting away more interesting. The problem is, the High way has nothing like this, its pretty hard to actually rush over mid from there (you would need to do 2 "hard" double jumps in a row to actually make that speed) and its not even rewarding enough. I feel like these ways should have been swapped, if you made these 2 doublejumps you would get to the higher flag (which is easier to get away with as i stated before). And lastly, i dont like that there are some kind of "buildings/castles", it makes it easy for campers etc. Take for example pforest, there is like only one place where you can hide and camp, which everybody checks anyway (well i do, right Clipz? :P). I guess you wanted to give the low path some disadvantage so you put there place, which can be held by campers? Probably, would make sense, while its good thinking, dont really like how it worked out.
Well, thats all for my "first look" review of your map :p
To sum up:
Map looks really nice i would say its your best map in terms of looks, just to remove some weird looking grasses :p
Looks == 9-10/10
I think you still need to work on the flow of the map. There are some possible issues i see with it, on the other hand you threw in some sweet speeds
Flow == 7/10
EDIT:Changed flow rating, i feel like 6 is too low, the map flows decent compared to your other maps.
As for how the map will actually play, i think it could work even now, but as i said i fear that the low path is much better than the high path (if i dont mind the camp possibility). But i like the flag positioning and overaly this map looks like its heading the right direction ;).
Gameplay == 6-7/10 ?? yet to be tested
EDIT4:
Just realised something, if someone gets High flag and tries to run away through the Low way, your only chance is to cut him of, because you cant catch to him if you try to switch paths and you cant jump to the other high with some speed > if someone gets High flag its basically cap on you. This is where i see the biggest issue.
EDIT5:
Ok, if you make correctly both DJs, high way is actually faster, but i think its still pretty harsh, because you will be lining and trying to do these DJs at the same time, they are way too hard imo. By 2 DJs i mean from the High way wall >DJ> bridge >DJ> other High way wall
EDIT6:
Low way > High way, High way is more riskier to go to, without any possible reward other than positional/surprise advantage.
Suggestions how to fix Low vs. High:
1)Make 1st flag worth more points. Not sure about that one
2)Make DJ from High way wall to the bridge easier
3)Add some midlow speed connecting both High ways
4)Add ramp to High ways, which shoots you to the bridge without having to DJ it.
EDIT7:
When you enter the cave from wet (Low way) the first lantern on the left is weird. Too lazy to make sshot, if you dont find it, i will make one.
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This map is currently best of all your maps. I like the visual look but it's easy campable. We already played it vs u three times and it was very fast and cool map with great jumps almost everywhere.
But after all my feedbacks to you i still dont like few things on this map.
- I would remove automag on dry side and maybe you could change it for autococker/carbine. Also I dont like spyders on this map.
- You could maybe add few more planks on this jump, because from gameplay I think it was a bit hard to do this jump well.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img15/2428/9ce6.jpg)
- Always when i tried to jump from low to bridge, this piece of wall blocked me, maybe do it a bit smaller. Also planks are too steep.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img850/1158/jhu9.jpg)
- I never used this ledge in match, maybe do it somehow useful for match. Like add some dj to the top of rock.
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3627/pe9t.jpg)
- And I still dont believe that this is normal... But it's just my opinion
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/4562/reoh.jpg)
EDIT1: You should move 2nd flag closer to the base maybe into the corner with boxes, so it's easier to defend.
EDIT2: This map needs one more way to prevend campers.
EDIT3: I was thinking about this way, MyeRs also told me his opinion about this side/bd and I think this is the best place for it.
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4223/jshi.jpg)
Anyway I like this map, we will test it in our matches and I hope next betas will be much more better.
PS: I feel like Chef-Killer :D
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aveiro leave the server so i can test it u nigguh
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spec 1 pw:test
login:test
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his post was too long, didnt read oops
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his post was too long, didnt read oops
Threw in there some formatting, altho i doubt that login and pw will last much longer ^^
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*Providing as much feedback as possible as i run arounnd it with aveiro and atmays as you want it to be part of a series, so want best possible results*
FIRST IMPRESSION FROM PLAYING: Annoying that everything is so circular. Straighting along it is kinda annoying cause it's like 1 fluid motion without any room for creativity in the jumps etc...
2) reminnds me of solitude (or w/e its called) - map by jeejee and DT. Detailed base and all that, then a ok mid. But, all the detailed base / church etc.. of that map got no use. Everything was done mid. Cause you all the action would happen mid. Here is the same. Paths are all fast for the average player to do, so everyone will get mid and line. It's really hard to grab on an organized team. So, that base - which has a fair amount of detail - will see 0 gameplay. Also, team that grabs first will sit mid forcing trades or revive caps purely by sitting mid. So, being slightly slower or behind after grabbing can put you in a terrible spot. Cause the paths are narrow after mid, you can have your own team putting out lines and never get by it.
3) not a fan of flg2 spot - seems kinda random and out of the way. TBH Both flag points seems random - usually flag1 is always in an open central spot - then flag 2 a bit more hidden etc.. They both just seemed place to create a 2 flag map rather than in a 'good' spot. It feels like you tried to avoid camping in the base - but the paths into base from mid will be completely camped.
4) that ramp from the SS (that i mentioned before) is REALLY awkward.
5) When you get a lot of speed at points you hit your head and lose it. Making it so you have to go slower to do the jumps. Kinda annoying.
ATMAYS CRITICISM:
You get from 1 side so fast, theres no balance. If you look at pforest you can get your team involved, this does not really require teamwork. It seems very random.
The terrain is cool but the gameplay isn't.
The map is more difficult then renoir/pforest, but the gameplay isnt near it. Adding so many paths etc.. doesnt increase gameplay.
"If I can get across this map pretty fast then there's a problem, cauase im not a good jumper"
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EDIT: Spyders don't get used in most good maps - most players hate spyders in the current game - its honestly just simpler to use carbines/cockers at all times cause it's 1 less thing for people to complain about.
I am giving more criticism to get it played. It looks nice, it is your best map - but it has a lot more to go before it could be good. It's got some good ideas, but it feels like it lacks flow to play - and it doesn't give any advantage to higher skilled players. It's not a map that requires teamwork to outplay etc.. but it is certainly your best map.
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Doesn't flow well. It doesn't have a high skill cap to the experienced players. Looks nice though.
Should just use maps made by me, obviously.
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Doesn't flow well. It doesn't have a high skill cap to the experienced players. Looks nice though.
An example of this is that if you look at maps DT has made - there are jumps that "experienced" players still don't make every try. There's a lot of room for failure. And every jump can be started from hundreds of spots. They don't feel forced. To this day, there are new jumps being found in maps like carp/pforest etc.. Pforest was out for like 3-4yrs before people found the midswitch speedjump.
Stuff like that increases the skill cap to make it WORTH learning. A map like this - once you know the routes there's nothing to learn. You can camp the entrances easy - and better players don't get too much benefit.
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JMR has already shown me multiple jumps that I would consider at a high skill level, to gain an advantage of people of a lower skill. It's just like the pforest 3-4yrs midswitch speed on a smaller scale, you have to study it until you can say you know everything on the map. For example there are nice jumps to high flag that are a little forced but take skill and can be done in one smooth motion as shown by inte when they played this map. There are jumps to the higher ledge so you can see them through sky brush and through a line when they approach, get on ts3 with him and he might be able to show you more.
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JMR has already shown me multiple jumps that I would consider at a high skill level, to gain an advantage of people of a lower skill. It's just like the pforest 3-4yrs midswitch speed on a smaller scale, you have to study it until you can say you know everything on the map. For example there are nice jumps to high flag that are a little forced but take skill and can be done in one smooth motion as shown by inte when they played this map. There are jumps to the higher ledge so you can see them through sky brush and through a line when they approach, get on ts3 with him and he might be able to show you more.
I was in the game with aveiro, whos part of iNte, and we were going through it together. I know there's jumps, we played on it as well as jumping around and went over the map for a good hour. I stand by every flaw that I noted.
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This map is nice! Way to go! I only played alone a little but my only problem is the map feels a little compact in some areas.
A few things.
1. Black fern?
2. I'm not a fan of this non-HD texture. Either scale it down or use something that has an HR4 component.
3. Some areas, such as this one, look overbright and washed out.
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This is my feedback. It may not be the best in the world, but it's what I don't like.
1st Screenshot: Found a lighting bug on the little grass thing which I'm next to, I think. I'm no expert on this type of thing. Oh yeah, it's only there in one base.
2nd Screenshot: That little hill (which I am standing on in the picture) makes me overjump all my jumps. Instead of going onto your two-planked ramp into that window thing, I over-jump the two-planked ramp.
3rd Screenshot: This little area is pointless. It will be used for camping, and it's only really useful when going down the hole at the top. Maybe you could put a hallway or something to connect that area to something.
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This is my favourite jump so far. (Third attempt in demo).
http://banterous.co.uk/demo/1017
NYE right now, so I'll play it properly tomorrow!
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Firstly I would like to thank everyone for such in-depth feedback in a such short space of time! It really can make a big difference. So thank you for your time and efforts!
• Added black fern to bug list
I am pretty confused right now though, seems like a lot of different opinions about my map are shared. Prozajik's feedback is a perfect example of how to post gameplay feedback. He not only showed what he'd like to see improved but he suggested some solutions.
myers
An example of this is that if you look at maps DT has made - there are jumps that "experienced" players still don't make every try. There's a lot of room for failure. And every jump can be started from hundreds of spots. They don't feel forced. To this day, there are new jumps being found in maps like carp/pforest etc.. Pforest was out for like 3-4yrs before people found the midswitch speedjump.
Stuff like that increases the skill cap to make it WORTH learning. A map like this - once you know the routes there's nothing to learn. You can camp the entrances easy - and better players don't get too much benefit.
If I am not mistaken, this maps has TONS of jumps, not forced at all either. Ask clipz, he found LOADS of jumps that I didn't even plan, maybe you are just not as a good jumper as him. I'm not sure. What I am sure of though, you can do many speedjumps in my maps from LOADS of areas and use the jumps to go to different directions / different angles / different heights. If that is not variation, I don't know what is!
About 'plenty of room for failure', prozajik said that some jumps were too hard! He is experienced. Also, watching iNte play this map, I have seen them fail many times!
Your reply has been contradicted by feedback I have heard and what I have seen with my own eyes.
The jump feedback you provided is the only feedback I disagree with, the rest of your feedback was spot on. :)
prozajik
Thank you for such in-depth feedback! I will defiantly take your suggestions on board! I have some ideas on how I can improve the flow of mid on this map :) I will post pictures of the ideas very soon! :)
Also,
"Add ramp to High ways, which shoots you to the bridge without having to DJ it."
I think this would be a great idea :), but I'm not sure if I will loose 'myers points' for making a jump easier, being as 'experienced players' cannot make that jump. If I can make it at least once a match, experienced players should be able to make it at least 10x as more. But I think I will make the ramp to make it easier.
Aveiro
Thanks for making the effort to post feedback too! :)
"- You could maybe add few more planks on this jump, because from gameplay I think it was a bit hard to do this jump well."
Again, this could loose me some "myers points", this will improve flow, but he says that it's better to have harder jumps that even 'experienced players' like you cannot do every time.
Then again, I personally think adding more planks there is a good idea :)
I will try to make that wall that doesn't look nice look better :)
I have a few ideas for a BD, I will post images here. Your idea seems really nice :)
Images coming soon of ideas I have
• make the paths to mid wider, to minimize spraying (thanks to myers gameplay feedback)
• A few ideas for BDs in mid (thanks to prozajik and avi)
• An idea to move capspot to the centralized ditch at base. (thanks to capo and myers)
Thank you to the rest of you who posted bugs and feedback! I have read every reply and took it to heart. b2 will defiantly be a lot better :)
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Who cares about "MyeRs points"? He's not your boss. He's just one guy with one opinion. You have a lot of contradicting opinions in this thread so you must decide which opinions make the most logical sense and listen to those. Myers wants harder speed jumps? Make one or two that are extremely challenging. Others want some jumps to be easier? Make sure you have jumps that vary in skill level so mediocre jumpers don't feel left out.
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^ Dude shut the intercourse up. Nobody is saying my points are superior, but I certainly know more than you in every aspect of this game. Posting to say "GREAT MAP" is useless. Every map released could be improved upon, so don't post if you don't have the knowledge to help it improve. I got people who weren't playing the game to get on and playtest it on a EU server, and after 1 game those were the joined thoughts. All the people who played in that play test have played 6+ years. We know what we're talking about. He wants this to be part of a series of maps for tournaments/leagues, so we're giving as much feedback as possible so it gets to a level where it'll make us want to participate. Cause at this stage, there's no way I'd play this map by choice.
Sure, there may have been "harder jumps" but the general path of the map was 1 fast and easy speed that felt awkward due to the map being an 8.
The mid into base paths provides a huge gameplay flaw. The actual base (with connecting paths etc.. don't get used when they actually could provide good gameplay.) The biggest problem with this map is the transition from base to mid.
@JMR - No, Clipz is not a better jumper l0l. He likely spent more time looking for stuff, I followed main paths and did 1 game on it. So, sure may not have found them all, but the necessary jumps (and likely the fastest ways) aren't hard.
Another "less relevant" and my 'personal preference' point - which I have told Clipz before when he asked me about gameplay in maps (and he listened to it) -- "switches" and "control points" go a long way in making a good map. For that, you also tend to need to have a larger scale/height in the map. (ie, all of DT's maps have high/low points, making it always feel big even on narrow areas). And they typically all have high points near mid where you can control the majority of mid - and high points in base where you can control the majority of the base. Typically, being on a high point gives you a better view of more area, so you are at an advantage. Your map seems like all 1 level "mainly" (other than mid, which again, to me felt awkward running around). I'm not sure the best way to explain why it was awkward, so i'll try to do that...
LAST POINT @JMR: My criticism is to make the map good, all of it aside this is the best map you've made - but even mappers who are more skilled than you like Cusoman tend to make awkward maps. It's hard to get it 'perfect' or even 'playable' for the most part. (Given how little success anyone other than DT has had in mapping in this community). But the map is visually good, and plays better than any map you've made - but it just doesn't play at a level where I see people wanting to do a tournament on it.
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Myers, pforest's main speeds are very easy. There are other speeds in my map that are very good, but are hard. I don't understand/don't agree with your points about jumps. I think it's because I have played this map on quite a few matches, so I know probably a lot more jumps on it than you do now. (Thanks to clipz)
Anyway, I agree with you myers, tournament quality is very different from the average map. It needs a competitive flow. I designed this map to have one, but mid didn't turn out as I planned, so b2 will be a lot better. I believe this map is tournament standard once I sort the high/low problem that prozajik pointed out.
Thanks to proza, I now have a good idea of how I can make this map tournament worthy :)
I did find a method of making the castle-to-bridge-to-caste on mid jump almost every time, may make a demo of it so people can learn this jump, otherwise, I'll make it easier and put a ramp there.
b2 will make mid less of a bottleneck and will lead more gameplay to base :)
EDIT
Just had a really long talk with myers and he came up with some awesome suggestions for base.
I will be moving first flag back to it's original spot and moving 2nd flag ontop of the gate. I will be making a tunnel from the high path to where 2nd flag used to be and that can be used like a switch.
Prozajik had an good idea for mid low and that also will be in the next beta.
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My feedback:
This is just MY OPINION, not everyone will agree
Aesthetics:
It's a very nice looking map!
1. This pillar is very boring! I think a new pillar would look a lot better, very quick fix. (Also posted some examples of pillars, very quick examples haha).
(http://puu.sh/652yF.jpg) (http://puu.sh/653T9.jpg)
2. This support brace is also very boring and is obviously overlapping with the other brushes, I think it should be re-done, very easy fix.
(http://puu.sh/652lg)
3. This edge comes to a point, maybe round it off a bit more. (Never been a fan of walls coming to points, but it may just be me).
(http://puu.sh/652mG)
4. Misaligned brush.
(http://puu.sh/652ny)
5. And again :)
(http://puu.sh/652nT)
6. This corner is very dark, especially compared to the other sides corner. Maybe experiment with some light entities with low values and see if you can make it a bit lighter, but still a shadow (hopefully I explained that well :P).
(http://puu.sh/652oi.jpg)
7. This 'hump' looks very weird and unnatural IMO. (It also comes to a point, which looks very weird :P).
(http://puu.sh/652oE.jpg)
8. These wood planks are at too much of an angle and the texture is very low res.
(http://puu.sh/652pc.jpg)
9. Try using some light entities to get rid of the weird lighting on the ladder.
(http://puu.sh/652q2.jpg)
10. In-game this triangle of grass (on the wall) is the only one not lit in the area. (If I remember correctly). It stands out a lot when running towards it :P
(http://puu.sh/652qw.jpg)
11. Some weird lighting glitches that you might be able to fix with light entities (not sure).
(http://puu.sh/652qL.jpg)
12. These kind of gates usually have spikes on the bottom, I think it'd look pretty cool in this situation. (Could always make them 'mist' if they get in the way).
(http://puu.sh/652r3.jpg)
13. Weird lighting glitch again, could possibly fix this one by moving the brush a unit.
(http://puu.sh/652rg.jpg)
14. I think I've said this before but the little bracket under the light looks silly. I'd just remove them as they're against the wall anyway.
(http://puu.sh/652rx.jpg)
15. Misalignment :)
(http://puu.sh/652ro.jpg)
16. The rock wall looks really weird here, might just be me though.
(http://puu.sh/652ta.jpg)
17. Maybe chuck one of your lanterns in here, it's very dark.
(http://puu.sh/652tl.jpg)
18. Ugly pillar IMO, maybe just give it another go? (Again, might just be me).
(http://puu.sh/652tG.jpg)
19. Is there an invisible brush somewhere on this wall? Whenever I hit the rock and go over, I get caught on something.
(http://puu.sh/652ug.jpg)
20. IMO the 'hump' doesn't make much sense with a brick texture, maybe make it so it looks like dirt on top of the bricks?
(http://puu.sh/652vu.jpg)
21. Not sure if it's the low res texture or just this sign in general that doesn't look great. Maybe give it a redesign? :)
(http://puu.sh/652vG.jpg)
22. This is the same wall as before, I noticed it also came to a point on this side also :P
(http://puu.sh/652wI.jpg)
23. The current lighting makes this brush uh, not sure how to say it besides saying that the whole brush is very noticeable and doesn't flow with the rest of the wall.
(http://puu.sh/652wf.jpg)
24. These brushes look very weird, I think someone already mentioned it.
(http://puu.sh/656xe.jpg)
25. I think it'd look nice if the tree had a shadow, not sure if you know how to or not but I have also linked a picture that should help.
(http://puu.sh/652uU.jpg) (http://puu.sh/651DC.jpg)
Like I said, these are mostly MY OPINION on what you should fix. I am not trying to be a detective, I'm just trying to help make this map great.
I'll also post about gameplay as soon as I get to play it with people.
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Well there are some corners that are unlightened. And yeah, I love the jumps and speed ^^. I can't name those but make a wall so you cannot see the whole map border
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Thank you very much Rick for the suggestions! :)
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spcup_kingdom_b2
-coming soon-
(http://i.imgur.com/Wyb7669.jpg)
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^Should that be classified as porn? Cause that just gave me a hard one.
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^Should that be classified as porn? Cause that just gave me a hard one.
get a life
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^Should that be classified as porn? Cause that just gave me a hard one.
Dude, really...
Judging by that screenshot, I think beta 2's going to be a lot more different than beta 1.
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Beta 2 is out. :)
(http://i.imgur.com/SBW3JVB.jpg)
Things I need to do for b3:
• Fix weird hole in metal gate
• Make bd to mid low larger so you don't knock your head
• Make mid-low to bd's entrance have a clip brush so you don't loose speed when entering.
• Fix random wall texture on mid bridge entrence
• Fix brush misalignment on cave switch to mid
• Some how make the light entities not so 'white' and fit in more
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Not as awkward, and a lot of gameplay issues fixed, have to play test to get more fedback.
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Not as awkward, and a lot of gameplay issues fixed, have to play test to get more fedback.
It looks still pretty easy campable from mid :/ also this position of flags is better for campers. You can now sit on 2nd flag and they can't grab you.
- This looks weird in my opinion
(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/983/lai5.jpg)
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8470/nu98.jpg)
But good job with this beta.
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It looks still pretty easy campable from mid :/ also this position of flags is better for campers. You can now sit on 2nd flag and they can't grab you.
Look at the majority of maps people make that HAVE SUCCESS in DP. The majority, you can see both flags from 1 point. Often times, it's from sitting on flag 2. The reason for that is because EVERY team has different styles of plays. If you try to remove camping, it's like maps that try to remove rushing. It doesn't work. It's the reason mid flags don't work in DP. Camping is a style of play, and also one typically used by lesser skilled players as it's easier. So it gives them a chance.
The old flag placements were just random, it was like you just made a map and randomly placed 2 flags with the sole purpose of stopping camping - rather than improving gameplay. These are in "central" base points, so now there's actually a more defined base. Before, it was hard to distinguish what base was. It also incorporates the commonly used "speed jump to 2"
As for mid, I agree, it's still awkwardish, there's still problems with the map, there's still flaws but it's improved. The new dirt path to high path makes it easier to deal with "forced revive capping" as it plays similar to a Pforest wet/dry bridge connection. And the added "mid low" to "high path" path (your last screenshot) works to make the bottleneck/linefest mid a bit more tolerable.
All in all, the flag placement is MUCH better and actually makes for better gameplay. There's very few maps currently played where you can't see flags from 1 point. (Sphouse, Carp, Castle1 are the ones to come to mind, and out of those I only ever see carp played - which even at that is only typically by more experienced players.) If you remove camping, you put teams without voice recon at a huge disadvantage as well. You need to incorporate every form of gameplay, camping/rushing/controlling to make a good map, each form of gameplay you remove makes the gameplay more static and less interesting.
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Is b1 still available for download? I believe that is the version to be judged, unless we're just going with the latest version...
Edit: Looking around on B2, I noticed on the grate/gate that the triangles were kind of messed up. Which qbsp compiler are you using?
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The only thing I don't like is that it's so easy to get shot getting the high flag. Although I like the placement, you can get lined easily.
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ftp://www.otb-server.de/pub/Maps/beta/spcup_kingdom_b1.bsp
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Beta 3 is released. See OP for downloads.
As far as gameplay goes, there's not really much I can do now, a part from trying different things.
Instead of tinkering further with the gameplay on this map, I'd prefer to start my next spcup, as this one is currently playable and fun.
There are 2 weird lighting glitches that only happen on one side. I use the latest fixed compiler and have no idea how to fix it. I've tried a lot.
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There are 2 weird lighting glitches that only happen on one side. I use the latest fixed compiler and have no idea how to fix it. I've tried a lot.
Experiment with light entities, change sun angle by 1 degree, move brush(es) slightly, use phong shading, and if none of those things work, give up.
At this point I agree, just work on your next spcup map until sufficient feedback appears on this thread to make beta 4 have enough changes.
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Experiment with light entities, change sun angle by 1 degree, move brush(es) slightly, use phong shading, and if none of those things work, give up.
At this point I agree, just work on your next spcup map until sufficient feedback appears on this thread to make beta 4 have enough changes.
Experiment with light entities [done]
change sun angle by 1 degree [done]
move brush(es) slightly [done]
use phong shading [done]
and if none of those things work, give up. [doing] haha :)
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I checked out beta 3 for a bit, and the only problems I saw were these. (I don't know if they were in the previous betas, but here's my feedback)
First Image
What does it do? Nothing, IMO. It's hard to get to, barely noticeable, and hardly (if all) useful.
Is it easy to access? No, it's not. Unless you spawned there, it's very hard to get to.
Is it noticeable? No, it really isn't. Although there's an autococker in it, nobody would notice it.
Second Image
What does it do? From midhigh to the base part it's a little obstacle to jump over, but the ladder isn't really in a good spot for climbing.
Is it easy to access? I guess, it's kind of narrow to go through though. Maybe make the path wider or just remove the ladder from there.
Is it noticeable? Sort of, but it's not really useful. You can just use the other newer paths you created to get to midhigh instead of that ladder. You can easily get shot while climbing, and again, the path is a little narrow, which makes it less noticeable than it could be.
That's my feedback for beta 3.
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Image 1:
May I remind you, that this is a tournament map. Myers suggested me to add a bunker there with autococker, as it would fit in nicely with the jumps and flow. It's relatively easy to get up there and provides a nice defence spot.
Image 2:
This ladder, from actually playing the map, is used quite a lot and I have no trouble going up it.
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LaZeRs, do you not have the HR4 textures? I still can't understand how people maintain their saneness playing this game with such low-res textures.
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Judging: http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=26586.msg243262#msg243262
It looks like several of the issues I had with the beta I judged have been resolved with the latest beta. It also looks like the size worked out better than I anticipated when there were a lot of players, so I might revise some of that scoring.
In my personal opinion, the second flag detracts from the gameplay. The first one is in a nice accessible location, with many angles of attack. Fun to try to jump by a group of defenders and go for the grab... then you have to go for the second one, which is in a much more susceptible location for being eliminated. You're pretty much obligated to get it, too. If you don't, on a map this size, a cap trade will put you way behind. Instead of adding another possible grab to make defense harder, it gives them two opportunities to defend, making it easier. It's not a requirement that every new competitive pb2 map have 4 flags. :)
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Judging: http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=26586.msg243262#msg243262
It looks like several of the issues I had with the beta I judged have been resolved with the latest beta. It also looks like the size worked out better than I anticipated when there were a lot of players, so I might revise some of that scoring.
In my personal opinion, the second flag detracts from the gameplay. The first one is in a nice accessible location, with many angles of attack. Fun to try to jump by a group of defenders and go for the grab... then you have to go for the second one, which is in a much more susceptible location for being eliminated. You're pretty much obligated to get it, too. If you don't, on a map this size, a cap trade will put you way behind. Instead of adding another possible grab to make defense harder, it gives them two opportunities to defend, making it easier. It's not a requirement that every new competitive pb2 map have 4 flags. :)
Thanks for your suggestions :)
I mainly built this map for tournaments though, myers provided excellent feedback relating to the position of flags. The map, flag wise plays quite a bit like pforest now. Which is good for competitive gameplay.
I highly agree, there are way too many 4 flag maps and my next one may be a 2 flag one :) It's easier to make a good, tournament-worthy 4 flag map than it is to make a tournament-worthy 2 flag map imo.
I agree with you that 2nd flag is not that obvious, I think I'll make it easier to spot flag to and maybe provide some arrows as directions to 2nd flag.
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I think the 2nd flag feels pointless in pforest as well. If everybody always grabs both, what's the point? It just slows down the grab a bit, because you have to spend the little bit of extra time to grab 2 flags instead of 1. Yeah, you get more points for killing with the flags, but overall, the 2 flags per base just feels like a bit of a forced fad. "This popular competitive map had 2 flags per base, so 2 flags per base must be a requirement for a good competitive map."
Anyway, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. I'd be curious to see how it played with 1 flag, but it's your map.
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The way you're describing how 2 flags in maps like Pforest work is assuming it's a 1on1, where both opponents are grabbing simultaneously. This would imply, you grab one, and have the grab the 2nd, which purely acts as a slightly longer time for the same outcome - a flag fight. However, that's not the purpose of a 2nd flag in most maps.
But the purpose of 2 flags is primarily for everything other than 1on1. It forces much more teamwork. If you're 1v3, without teamwork, you can sometimes succeed camping, but this is rare in a map like pforest as even with recon many people get grabbed on. It provides 2 paths into base, both of which have means of grabbing both flags. Therefore, it forces a team to setup to get more benefit.
The more coordination, the more reward. If you have really good teamwork, you can grab both flags while someone is camping. This gives the team with better teamwork a bigger reward.
It's an act of increasing teamwork, making recon more crucial, and making camping more of a risk. This doesn't work the same in the average 1 flag map. So the flag placements on Pforest are not random and unnecessary, they are what provide the gameplay, which there's more that could be explained but you can't possibly know all the benefits whilst not playing competitively.
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Arguing with the maker of the game on 2 flag gameplay... eh. I don't mind a second flag, but the placement in your map is pretty questionable. You float around in the air, and you would have to be completely out of site in order to grab.
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Arguing with the developer isn't a bad thing. Lots of people have played the game more than I have and may know what makes better gameplay. I'm merely expressing my own opinion here.
It just bugs me a bit that so many mappers these days are just throwing in 2 flags in each base instead of designing a really good base layout and flag position. I think instead of starting off with the assumption that you need 2 flags and shifting their positions around in each beta, you might be better off focusing on making a really good base layout for one flag.
Having 2 flags means potentially twice as many "cheap camping" locations you have to deal with. The situation I was referring to wasn't for 1v1's. It's for the situations where you're going for a grab in a base that has defense, and the enemy team is doing the same thing. If you grab 1 flag unscathed, you're pretty much obligated to grab the second one as well, otherwise you risk cap trading with an enemy that has 2 flags and losing points (relatively).
I also disagree with the point about 2 flags requiring more teamwork. With 1 flag, you have to time an attack very carefully to get the grab, usually involving a decoy sacrifice. With multiple flags, multiple players can just speed jump in whenever and likely grab. It doesn't require as much coordination. I've seen less skilled teams with better teamwork beat more skilled players on single flag maps. That doesn't typically happen on multiflag maps where individual skills seem to be the primary factor in winning.
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My Judging:
Rick's template
Detail - 90/100
Brushes in the map that are primarly there to make it look nice.
Relevance - How does the detail compare to the rest of the map? Is it relevant to the theme and style? Or is it random? (20/25)
All seems to fit, because the map has a nice eclectic theme to start with. Although, the paving slabs giving way to grass effect doesn't look good when the brushes don't align with the stone slab textures.
Appearance - Is it visually appealing? Does it make you want to play the map? (25/25)
Yes, very much so.
Suitability to Gameplay - How does the detail collaborate with gameplay? (20/25)
None of it appeared to get in the way, apart from larger detail which was clearly designed for cover.
Quantity - Is there too little? Is there too much? Or is there enough? (25/25)
There's always something nice to look at in this map no matter where you are
Jumps - 85/100
Judge based on the jumps of the map
Quantity - Are they too rare? Are they too common? (20/25)
With a few exceptions in the periphery, there seems to be an abundance of jumps.
Suitability - Are the jumps randomly placed? Are they needed? Do they work well? (20/25)
Most of the jumps seem to have clear goals and the terrain jumps are designed with speed in mind.
Relevance - Are the jumps relevantly placed? Are they Leading to places of importance? (20/25)
See above.
Range - Are there jumps for people of all skill level? Some easy jumps and some hard? (25/25)
There were a couple of speculative jumps I couldn't manage, as well as the usual ramp jumps etc. So I'd say the best spread of the maps in the competition, just by virtue of including some harder jumps.
Gameplay - 75/100
Judge based on how fun the map is to play
Flow - Do you get stuck anywhere? Can you get from place to place without any fuss? (14/15)
Flows remarkably well, can jump around for ages without hitting the walls. Would be sick with warsow movement. Had to adjust for battlements a couple of times.
Items (placed) - Are the items placed in convienient locations? Will they affect gameplay negatively? Are they present at all? (6/10)
Steadfastly unadventurous with these, just a couple automags and fairly well spaced ammo.
Spawns - Will you get spawn killed? Are the spawns varied enough? Are they fair? (10/10)
A few locations. May need a couple more actual spawn points for pubs, but seems foolproof for matches.
Lines - Do the lines look interesting? Are they used for the sake of being used or do they serve a purpose? Is the Visibility of the map good? Can players see other players at certain points only? And does this help or hinder gameplay?(10/15)
Good balancing of sight lines with open areas for movement. No real easy base-to-base lines but the mid certainly would heat up a bit with a few players.
Capping + Grabbing - Is it too easy/ hard to grab? Is it too easy/ hard to cap? Are the flags worth too much or too little? (20/30)
The two flags appear separated at first but kind of encourage a looping path where you grab the 2nd on the way out from the first. Consider moving the second flag further towards the other side of the base?
Layout - Are all the paths equal in terms of speed? Is the scale of the map good? (15/20)
I like the ambitious size, especially given the time it was completed in and detail throughout. Was hard to get a timer on the paths but they didn't seem vastly different.
Technical Skill - 25/50
The quality of the mapping techniques used.
R_Speeds - Are the r_speeds low enough for play? Has the mapper done a good job at keeping them low? Will it be laggy for some players? (8/25)
Here's where some of the map falls down - aside from a few tunnels, it is rare to see wpoly under 1000. This rises to 3000 in the base, and there is also some water which could make the base unplayable for slow PCs with reflective water on. Consider using custom textures instead of brushwork, on the portcullis for example, and revise your ladder design, for a start.
Alignments - Are the textures aligned correctly? (5/10)
Just because you make certain things out of chipboard textures doesn't mean they'll look good without aligning the textures :) Also, your torches look messed up in the bases?
Brush + Grid work - Is there technique good? Is the grid size appropriate? Have they used clipping planes (if they are relevant)? etc. (12/15)
Mostly good, as mentioned the ladder design is somewhat silly. Don't like the odd ledge-type brushes above the cutout on the left path out of base just before mid. Nice terrain and integration of the different styles though.
Innovation - 25/50
Is this map NEW and EXCITING or have we seen it before?
Innovation/ Unique - Have we seen this all before? Or were you impressed by the fresh look of the map? (25/50)
Has a lot of influences evident, but seems fairly new simply in the variety of environments used. Individual sections of the map seem derivative but overall it is greater than the sum of its parts.
Overall - 300/400
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Hey JMR, will this ever be finished?
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Just played this map, and gameplay is amazingly good. If you find a way to fix up those light issues, and change the ugly light tan texture you use for the ramp planks and the thing on the cannon, this should go final.
Also, I'm pretty sure you're aware of this, but the cannon, if used properly, can shoot the player. If you walk up and over it, you get shot, deflected up, and land on the flag 2 bridge. Also, if you face the cannon, crouch left, and crawl to the side of it, it will launch you under the gate. If you hold right while doing this, you'll dodge the barrel and fly to the opposite side of the base.
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To be honest, I think the cannons should just be removed. They're buggy and don't look very good.
By the way, the newest qbsp fix here should help with some of the issues in the map: http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=26664.0
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Played this during Social (distancing) Saturday, and I've kind of changed my mind about the cannons. They're kind of nice as an accessible way to grab the 2nd flag. I'd just work on making them more consistent and maybe just as a designed jump pad to the flag, rather than having that be a weird side effect.