Wobluda Remake

[BASEBALLDUDE]

No JMR you should not stop this remake just because 1, maybe 2 people don't agree with it. You have far more supporters than that and most of your supporters are the ones actively playing right now. Your adversaries are mostly the "experienced" players who have yet to play on a single pub in 2013. (maybe I'm exaggerating on that one.) the point is that this is a very productive use of your time and this is just what the game needs.

However, to comply with what Clipz and Myers are both saying, please don't change gameplay.

[Clipz]

Why should we play in pubs? It's not fun the skill gap is tremendously far apart. It's only fun playing more experienced players. We play in pubs then new players rage quit, we don't need that to happen in this game.

I never said don't do this map, I don't mind the way it looks i do agree the triangles on the hill may even look worse then a flat terrain though.

[BASEBALLDUDE]

I'm sorry I have to agree with Myers the people you listed know NOTHING about mapping you should have made a public formal release

For that map, it matters none what the competitive, experienced players think. JMR made it for noobs to enjoy, and guess what? Noobs enjoy it.

[MyeRs]

For that map, it matters none what the competitive, experienced players think. JMR made it for noobs to enjoy, and guess what? Noobs enjoy it.

Wobluda is the most played competitive map in the game. Which is why I'm complaining about changed gameplay. But as you wrote above, "dont change the gameplay" - that's been my argument all along. I've wrote many times that he should go ahead and do it BUT - if its a visual upgrade, don't change the gameplay (best solution, will guarantee his hard work pays off) -- if its a remake then don't do such minor changes - actually REMAKE it.

Also, don't say this BS about pubbing. Pubbing means nothing, cause define pubbing? Speed server? Jump servers? 60s Resp pubs? PGP pubs? Well, if we're talking about how DP is intended to be played, only 60s Resp public servers matter. And as a matter of fact, I pub DAILY, and play in jump servers daily as well. Don't say stuff you don't know. I quit on the competitive scene cause it was too easy, I get more challenge in a pub. But yes, I still play ony public servers daily.

[omni]

This argument has gone on too long I agree that the maps visuals shouldn't affect gameplay AT ALL, for the simple reason that a map that has been created should remain the same and remakes should add something new gameplay-wise, I still think this is a good thing though, getting newbies to stick around so they can be intergrated Into the competitive scene is just as if not more important and most people who see wobluda for the first time will most likely be thinking what the hell is this rubbish, the maps need to look more respectable.

For the record: I don't classify myself as a great mapper, I think my opinions matter somewhat in terms of technical chanes needed buy whateverlike its stated above I have the technical skill but I don't understand gameplay. And that does not reflect in my current maps either.

[Clipz]

For that map, it matters none what the competitive, experienced players think. JMR made it for noobs to enjoy, and guess what? Noobs enjoy it.

Yeah news enjoy it because they are clueless on what a good map contains. If it were up to the newbs we would be playing Italy, ub cliffs and shazam33 24/7. Then they find out what the match scene is someone picks a normal map like castle1 or Renoir and they have half a clue what's going on. This is just another reason why we need a map list.

[MyeRs]

This argument has gone on too long I agree that the maps visuals shouldn't affect gameplay AT ALL, for the simple reason that a map that has been created should remain the same and remakes should add something new gameplay-wise, I still think this is a good thing though, getting newbies to stick around so they can be intergrated Into the competitive scene is just as if not more important and most people who see wobluda for the first time will most likely be thinking what the hell is this rubbish, the maps need to look more respectable.

That's the point, he's not remaking the map - he's visually upgrading it - but in a manner that changes the gameplay. Even slight changes can change the gameplay. And that bothers me - but I also don't see server owners putting this on over the original Wobluda, meaning some servers will/wont have this version, causing MORE confusion for new players. Unless it's universally agreed upon, not all servers will run this version, as its not a real remake but it changes gameplay.

[omni]

Yes it should be one or the other, a remake like pforest to pbcup_pforest or JUST visual upgrades with no affect to gameplay. But it does need upgrading visually there is no question it's not a problem for people matching but for newbies it looks so unprofessional. It's not that bad considering the game is completely free and the download is so small but we may as well work with what we have and not rely on old bad looking maps such as ones like Wobluda.

Also what happens if obi is against this does he get a say? Either way I'm glad someone is doing something about it, and I hope that other maps get remade as well.

[Clipz]

Even if obi says no it's not like he copywrote the map. There is nothing he can literally do to stop JMR from redoing it. As long as he doesn't change the way the map flows it shouldn't matter. He can use a ton of clip brushes in the sewer to prevent the change of game play.

[atmays]

I say JMR remake, fix, flip, or whatever you are going to do with the map and then release it so we can give you PROPER feedback based off of game play. People are judging the map by screenshots, I would rather judge it by actually playing on it. (If there is a bsp file in the thread, I missed it.) Myers must be the community spokesperson or something but he’s not qualified. Clipz you don't like it when people bash your maps so it’s only right to give respect to other mappers that is at least trying. If they want to think they are pro mappers so be it. Maybe they are, I haven't seen any of their work, so I won’t judge. Kind of off topic, I love the pubs as well as the matching scene. There needs to be some connection between the two or this game will keep declining. The “old school” guys should try to embrace the “noobs”. Too bad newer players get flamed away by most of the active/competitive players.

[Clipz]

I haven't disrespected this map what so ever mays, I've actually helped jmr and gave him pointers. I like the idea of the remake and I completely support him doing it. I'm just saying dont change how the map flows. I've seen his progress and tested it with him. I like how this looks besides the ramp out of spawn.

[atmays]

I haven't disrespected this map what so ever mays, I've actually helped jmr and gave him pointers. I like the idea of the remake and I completely support him doing it. I'm just saying dont change how the map flows. I've seen his progress and tested it with him. I like how this looks besides the ramp out of spawn.

I saw that much, I was talking about the comments made about the mappers. Even though it wasn't very harsh, They are still mappers and to pretty much tell them that their efforts are for nothing or their opinions mean nothing, I think, is wrong. As a mapper help them improve not tell them they're not good enough. We need more of that in this community.

[Clipz]

Omni is the only one in that group that I know maps. He was saying the others approved and gave feedback when infact most probably can't make a basic map. I'm all for helping people, I'm even going to learn bsp, unfortunately. Because quark is from prehistoric times just like myself lol.

[MyeRs]

Mays: Official spokesperson? Sorry, I didn't realize it's a forum, you know, a place you put your opinion. I am not putting down any mappers, I'm pointing out flaws in some peoples maps.

1) It's been clear thing that you cannot remake someone elses map without their permission. He's still doing it.

2) This is the most active map in the game, he's asking for feedback, so I'm giving my feedback. Which is: If you're going to remake it, then REMAKE IT, change the map like a remake should be. If you're going to visually improve the map (which is the better option) then DONT do anything that can change the gameplay (which you have). Also, as Cusoman said, his terrain change is just random.

Oh well, people never read full posts, yet reply with full generalizations.

[BASEBALLDUDE]

JMR, just keep workin' and we'll give you some real feedback when you release the map to the public.

[Rick]

I say JMR remake, fix, flip, or whatever you are going to do with the map and then release it so we can give you PROPER feedback based off of game play. People are judging the map by screenshots, I would rather judge it by actually playing on it. (If there is a bsp file in the thread, I missed it.) Myers must be the community spokesperson or something but he’s not qualified. Clipz you don't like it when people bash your maps so it’s only right to give respect to other mappers that is at least trying. If they want to think they are pro mappers so be it. Maybe they are, I haven't seen any of their work, so I won’t judge. Kind of off topic, I love the pubs as well as the matching scene. There needs to be some connection between the two or this game will keep declining. The “old school” guys should try to embrace the “noobs”. Too bad newer players get flamed away by most of the active/competitive players.

I agree. Let JMR finish the map, he can always change some of the terrain in the future if it does muck up gameplay. It's not the end of the world guys.

[LaZeRs]

JMR should be allowed to finish his map if he wants to. If you don't like the gameplay/flow of the map, then don't play it! There's other wobludas.

[Clipz]

JMR should be allowed to finish his map if he wants to. If you don't like the gameplay/flow of the map, then don't play it! There's other wobludas.

The problem is we don't want 10 wobludas, I've talked to jitspoe on this exact quote. He wants one, not two not three. Which ever Wobluda is best once the official list comes out gets played. Not saying it wont be this one. Not saying it will either.

[Chalk]

The problem is we don't want 10 wobludas, I've talked to jitspoe on this exact quote. He wants one, not two not three. Which ever Wobluda is best once the official list comes out gets played. Not saying it wont be this one. Not saying it will either.

So we gotta pick one before 2016? er what?

Oh well, people never read full posts, yet reply with full generalizations.

Get to the point, then. Nobody's trying to read yo essays. 

P.S. Maybe if you were top 20, we'd be interested in what you have to say, mYerS.

[JMR]

Before I continue with replying to this thread, let me give some pointers. If anyone makes a post, ignoring these pointers, I will simply disregard considering that poster's opinion. So if you don't get a reply, you know why

1) My terrain is not random at all, although some of it may seem random, it's in natural fact not, I put a lot of time into terrain. Spent a good 3 hours on that wobluda hill from spawn, constantly adjusting it to suit gameplay. I ditched in part of it to allow you to crouch and shoot past, yet remain in cover. Adding a new section to the hill to ADD to gameplay, making it better. I understand that adding to gameplay isn't always better, but I actually put thought into it and I can always go back to change it.

2) I KNOW gameplay will change, but your definition is by far to the extreme. I am talking about the general IDEA of wobluda, not the GENERAL terrain. For example, the slippery path that brings you up to mid/can slip down to get to 2nd - that's an idea. These paths only work well, if they are to the right scale so that's when it comes to comparing my map to the original wobluda.

3) The mapping committee actually progressed with a remake and got no permission from oBi whatsoever. Taking this logic, they were fine in doing this, oBi had no forms of copyright what-so-ever. Also, I have asked NUMEROUS people whether I should continue even without permission, they said yes, including clipz himself.

4) Idc what you class as a remake, but here's what I am doing, I failed to express what I am doing in the OP, so here's exactly what I am doing. I am re sculpting wobluda and I AM adjusting certain small parts of flow here and there with terrain, I think about my terrain hard. Also, as Rick correctly pointed out, I can ALWAYS go back and change some terrain if the public wants a certain part changed, there will be BETAs, I want you guys to decide how you want it to flow/what parts you think don't go so well. However, like the original wobluda, there will always be somewhere to improve. ALL the proper jumps will work and I will try to maybe make some new ones too. The map may go towards a snowy scene, mixed with grass, to make the ice jump actually more natural and not random.

5) What feedback I want. I don't want any of that myers ego, non-productive feedback. All you can currently give feedback on is the visuals Just as cusoman did, I am currently working on softening the tunnel to make it look a lot better. I will want gameplay feedback when I start publishing bsp files, so for now, visual feedback only please Thank you.

This thread has become very off-topic in some ways, but to clarify one last thing, Omni and skyro have the technical knowledge of mapping to give me honest, good feedback, that's all I was arguing. It's not like I was asking them primary because they are my friends.